Posts by Disillusioned JW

22

Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

by Terry in

ezekiel 9:4.

“go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

Disillusioned JW

On second thought there there doesn't seem to be much in common with what Parsons wrote and with what Jacobovici said.

22

Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

by Terry in

ezekiel 9:4.

“go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

Correction: In my prior two posts I sometimes used the spelling "Parson" and at other times I used the spelling "Parsons". The spelling "Parson" is incorrect for the name of the scholar I referring to, instead his name is "Parsons".

Terry, I have done a tiny amount of research about the Rosicrucians but no more than that.

Folks, one example of an atheist claiming that Christianity existed long before Christ is the book called Christianity before Christ by John G. Jackson and published by American Atheist Press. But I haven't read that book.

22

Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

by Terry in

ezekiel 9:4.

“go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

Disillusioned JW

Elsewhere in the Cross book by Parson the following is said. [The text below and that quoted in my prior post are from https://archive.org/stream/nonchristiancros00pars/nonchristiancros00pars_djvu.txt . That source has some minor typos due to the computerized scanning transcription process (let the reader use discernment, or read the book from the PDF source instead).]

'No ross-shaped symbol of wood or of any other material had any part in the Christianity of the second and third centuries ; and the only cross which had any part in the Christianity of those days was the immaterial one traced upon the forehead in the non-Mosaic and originally Pagan initiatory rite of Baptism, and at other times also according to some of the Fathers, apparently as a charm against the machinations of evil spirits.

This " sign " or " signal " rather than " symbol " of the cross, referred to as theirs by the Christian writers of the second and third cen- turies, is said to have had a place before our era in the rites of those who worshipped Mithras, if not also of those who worshipped certain other conceptions of the Sun-God ; and it should be noted that the Fathers insist upon it that a similar mark is what the prophet Ezekiel referred to as that to be placed upon the foreheads of certain men as a sign of life and salvation ; the original Hebrew reading " Set a tail upon the foreheads of the men " {Ezek. ix. 4), and the tau having been in the days of the prophet in question — as we know from relics of the past — the figure of a cross. Nor should it be forgotten that Tertullian admits that those admitted into the rites of the Sun-God Mithras were so marked, trying to V explain this away by stating that this was done in imitation of the then despised Christians ! ^

That it was this immaterial sign or signal, rather than any material symbol of the cross, which Minucius Felix considered Christian, is demonstrated by the fact that the passage already quoted is accompanied by the remark that

" Crosses, moreover, we Christians neither venerate nor wish for. You indeed who consecrate gods of wood venerate wooden crosses, perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camps, what are they but crosses gilded and adorned ? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.""

^ De Praescrip. xl. - Oct. xxix.

This remarkable denunciation of the Cross as a Pagan symbol by a Christian Father who lived as late as the third century after Christ, is worthy of special attention ; and can scarcely be said to bear out the orthodox account of the origin of the cross as a Christian symbol. It is at any rate clear that the cross was not our recognised symbol at that date ; and that it is more likely to have been gradually adopted by us from Sun-God worshippers, than by the worshippers of Mithras and other pre-Christian conceptions of the Sun-God from us.

...

There thus being no opposing evidence of any weight, it is quite clear from the fact that as late as the third century after Christ we find a Christian Father who venerated the sign or figure of the cross denouncing it as a symbol, that no material representations of that sign or figure were recognised as Christian till an even later date. And such a conclusion is borne out by the striking fact that when Clement of Alexan- dria at the beginning of the third century made out a list of the symbols which Christians were permitted to use, he mentioned the Fish and the Dove but said nothing regarding the Cross. ^

...

Peed. iii. II, 59-

...

The other passage in the writings of Irenseus which deserves our notice, is neither more nor less than an emphatic declaration, by Irenaeus himself, that Jesus was not executed when a little over thirty years of age, but lived to be an old man. Explain it away how we will, the fact remains ; and it certainly ought not to be ignored.

At first sight this statement of Irenaeus would decidedly seem to support the theory advanced by some, that, as the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate admittedly did not want to carry out the extreme penalty in the case of Jesus, though he reluctantly consented to do so in order to pacify the Jews and allowed Jesus to be fixed to a stauros and suspended in public view, he took care to manage things so that Jesus should only appear to die. The idea of course is that if Pilate wished to preserve the life of Jesus he could easily have had him taken down while in a drueeed condition, have had the farce of burial carried out at the earliest possible moment, and then have had him resuscitated and removed to some region where he could dwell in safety. What Irenaeus says concerning Jesus is that

"He passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants. ... So likewise he was an old man for old men, that he might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as regards the setting forth of the truth but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, he came on to death itself .... From the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while he still fulfilled the office of a Teacher ; even as the Gospel and all the elders testify, those who were conversant in Asia with John the disciple of the Lord affirming that John con- veyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them moreover saw not only John but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the statement. Whom, then, should we rather believe ? Whether such men as these, or Ptole- maeus, who never saw the apostles and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle ? " '

The reader must decide for himself or her- self whether Irenaeus believed that Jesus was never executed ; or that he was executed but

^ Against Heresies, IL, xxii. 4-5.

survived ; or that he was born when we suppose, but executed thirty years or so later than we suppose ; or that, though executed when we suppose, he was then an old man, and was born, not at the commencement or middle or end of the year A.C. i, or B.C. 4, or whenever the orthodox date is, but thirty years or more before what we call our era began. An3^how he men- tions neither cross nor execution, and here seems to assume that Jesus died a natural death. And in any case the fact remains that, however mis- taken he may have been, Irenaeus stated that Jesus lived to be an old man ; and stated so emphatically.

Even granting that Irenaeus must have been mistaken, his evidence none the less affects one of the most important points debated in this work. For it is clear that if even he knew so little about the execution of Jesus, the details of that execution cannot have been particularly well known ; and the affirmation that the stauros to which Jesus was affixed had a transverse bar attached may have had no foundation in fact, and may have arisen from a wish to connect Jesus with that well-known and widely-venerated Symbol of Life, the pre-Christian cross. '

Notice that some of the things mentioned in Parson's book agree with what was said in "The Lost Tomb of Jesus, A Simcha Jacobovici Film"!! Is it mere coincidence that a book I learned of by researching the author of a quote in a WT publication contains some of the same ideas that Jacobovici later proclaimed? I don't think so.

22

Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

by Terry in

ezekiel 9:4.

“go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

Disillusioned JW

Last night I read a portion of an Awake! article from April 2006 (on pages 12 - 13) called "The Bible's Viewpoint. Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross?"
What caught my intention is that it quoted a scholar's book called The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parson. I thus investigated that book and its author and I discovered that the book was published in the year 1929! [The book's full title is THE NON-CHRISTIAN CROSS: AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE SYMBOL EVENTUALLY ADOPTED AS THAT OF OUR RELIGION.] That is the only scholarly source referred to in the Awake! article yet the source was about 77 years old when the Awake! was published. Furthermore I learned from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denham_Parsons that the author, John Denham Parsons, was a member of the Society for Psychical Research, yet the WT (which condemns the occult and spiritism) quoted him as an authority about the implement of Christ's death! Not only that, but Parsons wrote a book called OUR SUN-GOD OR CHRISTIANITY BEFORE CHRIST: A DEMONSTRATION THAT, AS THE FATHERS ADMITTED, OUR RELIGION EXISTED BEFORE OUR ERA, AND EVEN IN PRE-HISTORIC TIMES.

I decided to read those books to see what they say. I discovered that thay actually make a good case for a number of their claims! They can both be read for free online at https://archive.org .

The Cross book Parsons says the following.

'Another fact worthy of special note is that, whether the Fathers wrote in Greek and used the word stauros^ or wrote in Latin and trans- lated that word as cnix, they often seem to have had in their mind's eye a tree ; a tree which moreover was closely connected in meaning with the forbidden tree of the Garden of Eden, an allegorical figure of undoubtedly phallic signification which had its counterpart in the Tree of the Hesperides, from which the Sun-God Hercules after killing the Serpent was fabled to have picked the Golden Apples of Love, one of which became the symbol of Venus, the Goddess of Love. Nor was this the only such counterpart, for almost every race seems in days of old to have had an allegorical Tree of Knowledge or Life whose fruit was Love ; the ancients perceiving that it was love which produced life, and that but for the sexual passion and its indulgence mankind would cease to be.

Starting upon an examination of the early Christian writings in question, we read in the Gospel of Nicodemits that when the Chief Priests interviewed certain men whom Jesus had raised from the dead, those men made upon their faces " the sign of the stauros." ^ The sign of the cross is presumably meant ; and

^ Nicodemus i.

all that need be said is that if the men whom Jesus raised from the dead were acquainted with the sign of the cross, it would appear that it must have been as a pre-Christian sign.

Further on in the same Gospel, Satan is represented as being told that " All that thou hast gained through the Tree of Knowledge, all hast thou lost through the Tree of the Stauros." ^ Elsewhere we read that " The King of Glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam., and raised him : then, turning also to the rest, he said, Come with me as many as have died through the Tree which he touched, for behold I again raise you all up through the Tree of the Stauros." ^ Some see in this peculiar pronouncement a reference to the doctrine of re-incarnation.

...

^ Nicodenms vii. - Nicodemtis viii. '

In the Sun-God book (published in 1895) a number of things which Parsons says are things which a small number of atheists today say about Christianity having started before the time of Moses, and that some sayings in the Gospels relate to the signs of the Zodiac. Like a number of atheists who proclaim the Christ Myth theory, he says the Gospel of Mark is an allegory and he explains some things about early Christianity from a Gnostic point of view. He also says that some passages in the OT Bible are myths instead of being factual. He also believes in human evolution and says that our Genus, Homo, existed many thousands of years longer than 6,000 years. I might post quotes from that book in a different topic thread.

13

Governing Body Update 3 video on resuming meetings in person

by psyco in

regarding the governing body update 3 video on resuming meetings in person, i am wondering:.

what is the purpose of wearing masks and to sit keeping distances if you shake hands and hug each other before and after the meetings?.

Disillusioned JW

At 1 John chapter 4 the NWT instead of saying "every spirit" (as in the NKJV) says "every inspired expression". Since they interpret the wording in that chapter in that way, I guess that means they don't follow the advice in that chapter about testing the spirits to see if they are of God instead of the antichrist!

Correction: In my prior post where I said "I first rest such" I meant to say "I first read such".

13

Governing Body Update 3 video on resuming meetings in person

by psyco in

regarding the governing body update 3 video on resuming meetings in person, i am wondering:.

what is the purpose of wearing masks and to sit keeping distances if you shake hands and hug each other before and after the meetings?.

Disillusioned JW

It is significant that it was said that the "Governing Body really felt Jehovah's direction", since that amounts to saying that the Governing Body really felt INSPIRED by Jehovah. In the past a number of times the WT said the Governing Body didn't claim to be inspired, but in the video it was reported that they received inspiration.

BoogerMan and Listener, thanks for making those quotes of the WT claiming to receive communication from resurrected ones in heaven. That is because if reminds me of the WT's former use of Greber's translation (so-called) of the NT. Greber (whose wife claimed to be a spirit medium) claims that his translation was aided by communication (through Greber's wife as a spirit medium) from "God's Spirit World"!

Also, those quotes of the WT claiming to receive communication from resurrected ones in heaven reminds me than I first rest such in the Revelation Climax book, the claim seemed very strange to me. I think it was one the things which contributed to me having doubts that the WT/JW religion is "The Truth".

The WT has produced articles saying it is a sin of spiritism/spiritualism to try to communicate (even by prayer) with spirits of humans, including holy ones that people (such as Catholics) believe are in heaven (such as Mary the mother of Jesus), yet the WT claims to receive communication/direction from Br. Russell and others whom the WT claims have been resurrected as spirits to heaven!

When the Governing Body of the JW's supposedly think they are receiving communication from the supposedly resurrected anointed ones in heaven, do they follow the advice in the letter of 1 John 4:1 - 3 about testing the spirits, by asking them if Jesus Christ came in the flesh?

15

Nearly complete JW literature collection for sale

by jukief in

as many of you know, alan feuerbacher spent 40 years researching watchtower.

during that time, he bought every item of watchtower literature he could find.

his collection is so big that it’s impossible for me to try to catalog it, although i might be able to get some volunteers to help me with that.

Disillusioned JW

I would love to have a copy of the Holman Linear Parallel Edition Bible (with or without it being the edition with the WT's Berean helps). That is because it would be really convenient for study purposes to have the text of the KJV and RV arranged in that format instead of in the parallel column format.

49

Jehovah's Witnesses: remembering the weird and wacky!

by Vanderhoven7 in

do you remember some of the weird and wacky stuff emanating from the watchtower society?

let's make a list from memory that we can use to inject a little humor into our discussions with jehovah's witnesses.

- venus may be an enormous jurassic park.. - germs don't cause disease.. - no beards allowed.

Disillusioned JW

punkofnice that is a great collection of quotes (which you posted on page 3 of this topic thread) of the WT contradicting itself (or changing its mind) multiple times.

49

Jehovah's Witnesses: remembering the weird and wacky!

by Vanderhoven7 in

do you remember some of the weird and wacky stuff emanating from the watchtower society?

let's make a list from memory that we can use to inject a little humor into our discussions with jehovah's witnesses.

- venus may be an enormous jurassic park.. - germs don't cause disease.. - no beards allowed.

Disillusioned JW

Jehovah could grow the resurrected babies in supernatural wombs; Jehovah has the power to do anything . [This is a joke. I no longer believe in Jehovah but the idea of what Jehovah can do in regards to resurrections is consistent with scripture.]

14

Encouraged to do something = forced/intimidated

by neat blue dog in

in a recent article there was this experience from el salvador:.

"during the meeting, brother baltasar perla, sr., who later became a member of the branch committee, asked all the elders present to give him their government-issued identity cards.

he then informed the elders that their names and addresses would be included in a written request to the government for legal recognition... then explained to us that since our names and addresses would be in that document, if the authorities ever wanted to ban our work, we would be the first ones they would come after and the first ones to be thrown in jail.

Disillusioned JW

That is discouraging about how the congregation marked the record of the votes, but it gives me an idea of how to do battle with the JWs in court. My understanding is that in the USA because the WT is a corporation (though filed as a non-profit one) the congregations of the WT have to have votes on certain matters, the ones you voted on. As a result I think such voting is legally required to recorded correctly, like other corporate elections. Perhaps you and others have a legal case against their congregations and maybe against the WT. Of course you can't change the outcome of the elections since your vote (in regards to whether a resolution was passed or not) you was very much on the loosing side, but the congregation and perhaps the WT might could be subjected to some penalty due to vote tabulation fraud.

Of course if you take the matter to the courts you will probably be removed as one of JWs and thus not likely qualified to have your vote recorded.